The "Man that is a girl now" - Page 2

**Bill5461** · 08-09-2006, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat

Some people on this board are incredibly intolerant and immature.

You think?

Keri · 08-09-2006, 11:46 AM

Blackmask · 08-09-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat

I suppose you can do nothing but be supportive. It's not my business afterall.

People should learn to respect others. Some people on this board are incredibly intolerant and immature.

So if an girl (or guy) is severely anorexic, bones showing etc etc, but she sees a fat person in the mirror should you just be supportive of her choice to not eat? How is a distorted body image of thinking they were born in the "wrong" body any different? It's a negative and distorted image of their physical appearance. Sure they may feel better if they get major disfiguring surgery, but an anorexic feels better not eating.

How many threads have there been about plastic surgery and it being shallow and all about appearance. Major sex change surgery is about appearance. It's not a psychological change, although it may have psychological impact, it's an appearance change.

If someone wanted to have their left arm removed because they really didn't think it belonged there would you just support their decision or consider that maybe there was some psychological malfunction at work?

Keri · 08-09-2006, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackmask

So if an girl (or guy) is severely anorexic, bones showing etc etc, but she sees a fat person in the mirror should you just be supportive of her choice to not eat?

Well, no, but personally I wouldn't call them "disgusting", "weird" or a "freak" either.

Wolf · 08-09-2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:

By the way, if any of the less enlightened posters have not seen the movie Transamerica I would recommend that you do. It might just make your hearts grow a little bigger...

I am against the whole sex change. It goes against my personal beliefs. But, those who do it I can't say I have respect for them, since they aren't really respecting who they really are.

Cat · 08-09-2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackmask

So if an girl (or guy) is severely anorexic, bones showing etc etc, but she sees a fat person in the mirror should you just be supportive of her choice to not eat? How is a distorted body image of thinking they were born in the "wrong" body any different? It's a negative and distorted image of their physical appearance. Sure they may feel better if they get major disfiguring surgery, but an anorexic feels better not eating.

How many threads have there been about plastic surgery and it being shallow and all about appearance. Major sex change surgery is about appearance. It's not a psychological change, although it may have psychological impact, it's an appearance change.

If someone wanted to have their left arm removed because they really didn't think it belonged there would you just support their decision or consider that maybe there was some psychological malfunction at work?

Can you really compare the two though? I know nothing about how it is to feel either way, but judging from the outcome and the "side effects" of the cases, they seem quite different. People who wants to have a sex change operation has to go through one year of psychiatry, and they have to 'live' as a person of the opposite sex for a set time after that before they get to go through with the operation. If it was a psychological malfunction, it should be cleared up through that time.

Being anorexic seems to be a person hurting him or herself (by not eating), and a sex change operation is surgery done by professionals who have gone through that procedure a few, if not many, times before. The only thing the two seem to have in common is the fact that they're about a persons physical appearance.

Blackmask · 08-09-2006, 08:21 PM

Quote:

they have to 'live' as a person of the opposite sex for a set time after that before they get to go through with the operation. If it was a psychological malfunction, it should be cleared up through that time.

See my first post. I said they aren't in the wrong body because that's the one they have, but there could be social expectations which they don't see as accepted.

What does it mean to "live" like a man or woman? Clothes, appearance, can you honestly say it's behaviours? Then it comes to a discussion of how should a man or woman behave? Major surgery changes their physical appearance to match how they behave. This is a social reflection of expectations. If society just accepted them for who they are, then maybe their physical appearance wouldn't be an issue for them.

Cat · 08-09-2006, 10:09 PM

I suppose in a sex change case, to "live" like a woman or a man would be to go to the respective bathrooms, dress respectively, go by a different name. You'd live your life as you would after you got the operation. People have their own view of how men and women should behave.

Society in general doesn't accept most of the things that are different from, well, what's said to be normal. Even people who are handicapped turn heads when they're out in public. If someone feel they need to change their sex in order to be accepted, and if this is a well thought-out desicion, I support them. We can't change society, but many people are dependent on being accepted in order to feel good about themselves and be happy, so they should be allowed to change as they see fit (in most cases -- this does not mean I support the desicion not to eat made by a person suffering from anorexia). No one should stand in someone's way of being happy. Times change. In the year 2006 doctors are capable of changing peoples' faces and bodies. Society hasn't accepted that more and more people are going to take advantage of that knowledge. These are their bodies to change and 'mess with'.

Blackmask · 08-10-2006, 10:49 PM

But is your support misguided in supporting something so drastic as sex change surgery. Surely the support is to let them be who they are as a person, rather than their desire to change their physical appearance to feel like they belong.

Cat · 08-11-2006, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackmask

But is your support misguided in supporting something so drastic as sex change surgery. Surely the support is to let them be who they are as a person, rather than their desire to change their physical appearance to feel like they belong.

Well, I do support who they are as a person, but if this person feels he/she needs to have the surgery to have a better life, and they're sure of it, who am I to say they can't have it? I respect the way they choose to live their life.

Blackmask · 08-11-2006, 11:03 PM

Supporting someone's decision, and agreeing with it are two different things. If someone want's to commit suicide that's their decision, it's their life and if they want to end it then who's right is it to stop them? People with anorexia, people who cut, people who do drugs, whatever it may be, it's their life, their body, so what's the big deal? Why is something drastic as a sex change to feel they belong and be accepted any less sad then any of those other options?

Cat · 08-12-2006, 01:02 AM

When did I say it's any less sad? We need to understand that something drives people to do these things to themselves, and if the things are well thought out, let them do it. Again, I don't see how you can compare drug abuse or anorexia to a sex change operation. Sure, they're all in some way related to a person's mental health, but that's it. People who are ill, mentally or physically, makes me sad. But when someone takes drugs to numb the pain, they are not actually dealing with their problems. They are, in most cases, covering up their pain and slowly killing themselves. If you undergo a sex change operation, you will, unless something goes wrong, still be alive at the end of the day. I see them as two very different 'places' to be, if you catch my meaning.

We live in the year 2006, cosmetic operations are more common, and the demand is high. The doctors are getting better at it. Also, drugs are getting cleaner and even deadlier than they used to be. Some people may feel that the only way to solve their mental problems (if I may call them that), is to turn themselves into a member of the opposite sex. And after the mandatory years of counselling that come with the operation, I trust this is the very last resort. And therefore the only way for a person to get out of their current mental state. The only real way to solve the mental problems of a drug addict, would be to help him/her through the depression that got him/her into drugs, or got them to continue to feed their addiction (in most cases the underlying cause of drug addiction is depression). And this would make them stop self-medicating. So the sex change operation would be the only way to help these people to a better life. In the drug addict's case, the only way to help them would be to rid them of their depression, and not let them continue to take the drugs.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe the person who is having a sex change operation knows what's best for him/her after all of the counselling, and the person taking the drugs doesn't. They're not willing to face the pain that started the whole problem in the first place. In order for people to get better, they have to *want* to get better.

**open32** · 08-12-2006, 01:06 AM

I would have a hard time supporting it also. You can feel happy, sad, in love, sexual attraction or desire, those are feelings. But I dont now if you cant feel Asian, Lutheran, or Male.

I guess I dont really care as it doesnt effect me or harm, like some of the stuff blackmask said, there person doing it. Its hard to support such drastic steps someone would take in order to fit in.

In the case that it is a mental problem brought on by external circumstances like society, the person should probably go to a psychologist, not a surgeon.

BlackWolf · 08-12-2006, 01:56 AM

F*ck, how the hell can any of us say what it's like? I assume all of us are comfortable in our current bodies, and that we've always had said body? So who are we to say whether they can cannot feel like they're the wrong sex? I'm not weighing in on this one way or the other, all I'm saying is maybe we should consider that we don't know what's really going on in their minds.

08-09-2006, 11:46 AM	#22 (permalink)
Keri Kiss My Pom Poms Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 4,023 My Profile	LOL.

08-12-2006, 01:06 AM	#33 (permalink)
open32 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 7,646 My Profile	I would have a hard time supporting it also. You can feel happy, sad, in love, sexual attraction or desire, those are feelings. But I dont now if you cant feel Asian, Lutheran, or Male. I guess I dont really care as it doesnt effect me or harm, like some of the stuff blackmask said, there person doing it. Its hard to support such drastic steps someone would take in order to fit in. In the case that it is a mental problem brought on by external circumstances like society, the person should probably go to a psychologist, not a surgeon. Last edited by open32 : 08-12-2006 at 01:09 AM.

08-09-2006, 10:09 PM	#28 (permalink)
Cat Bloomin' crazy Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 1,971 My Profile	I suppose in a sex change case, to "live" like a woman or a man would be to go to the respective bathrooms, dress respectively, go by a different name. You'd live your life as you would after you got the operation. People have their own view of how men and women should behave. Society in general doesn't accept most of the things that are different from, well, what's said to be normal. Even people who are handicapped turn heads when they're out in public. If someone feel they need to change their sex in order to be accepted, and if this is a well thought-out desicion, I support them. We can't change society, but many people are dependent on being accepted in order to feel good about themselves and be happy, so they should be allowed to change as they see fit (in most cases -- this does not mean I support the desicion not to eat made by a person suffering from anorexia). No one should stand in someone's way of being happy. Times change. In the year 2006 doctors are capable of changing peoples' faces and bodies. Society hasn't accepted that more and more people are going to take advantage of that knowledge. These are their bodies to change and 'mess with'.

08-10-2006, 10:49 PM	#29 (permalink)
Blackmask Protector of Inanity Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 6,158 My Profile	But is your support misguided in supporting something so drastic as sex change surgery. Surely the support is to let them be who they are as a person, rather than their desire to change their physical appearance to feel like they belong.

08-11-2006, 11:03 PM	#31 (permalink)
Blackmask Protector of Inanity Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 6,158 My Profile	Supporting someone's decision, and agreeing with it are two different things. If someone want's to commit suicide that's their decision, it's their life and if they want to end it then who's right is it to stop them? People with anorexia, people who cut, people who do drugs, whatever it may be, it's their life, their body, so what's the big deal? Why is something drastic as a sex change to feel they belong and be accepted any less sad then any of those other options?

08-12-2006, 01:02 AM	#32 (permalink)
Cat Bloomin' crazy Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 1,971 My Profile	When did I say it's any less sad? We need to understand that something drives people to do these things to themselves, and if the things are well thought out, let them do it. Again, I don't see how you can compare drug abuse or anorexia to a sex change operation. Sure, they're all in some way related to a person's mental health, but that's it. People who are ill, mentally or physically, makes me sad. But when someone takes drugs to numb the pain, they are not actually dealing with their problems. They are, in most cases, covering up their pain and slowly killing themselves. If you undergo a sex change operation, you will, unless something goes wrong, still be alive at the end of the day. I see them as two very different 'places' to be, if you catch my meaning. We live in the year 2006, cosmetic operations are more common, and the demand is high. The doctors are getting better at it. Also, drugs are getting cleaner and even deadlier than they used to be. Some people may feel that the only way to solve their mental problems (if I may call them that), is to turn themselves into a member of the opposite sex. And after the mandatory years of counselling that come with the operation, I trust this is the very last resort. And therefore the only way for a person to get out of their current mental state. The only real way to solve the mental problems of a drug addict, would be to help him/her through the depression that got him/her into drugs, or got them to continue to feed their addiction (in most cases the underlying cause of drug addiction is depression). And this would make them stop self-medicating. So the sex change operation would be the only way to help these people to a better life. In the drug addict's case, the only way to help them would be to rid them of their depression, and not let them continue to take the drugs. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe the person who is having a sex change operation knows what's best for him/her after all of the counselling, and the person taking the drugs doesn't. They're not willing to face the pain that started the whole problem in the first place. In order for people to get better, they have to want to get better.

08-12-2006, 01:56 AM	#34 (permalink)
BlackWolf Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 28,122 My Profile	F*ck, how the hell can any of us say what it's like? I assume all of us are comfortable in our current bodies, and that we've always had said body? So who are we to say whether they can cannot feel like they're the wrong sex? I'm not weighing in on this one way or the other, all I'm saying is maybe we should consider that we don't know what's really going on in their minds.

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